28 August 08
Radikal website, Istanbul, in Turkish

Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan has said that his Turkish counterpart Abdullah Gul's visit to Yerevan on 6 September is a good opportunity to normalize relations between the two countries. Speaking in an interview with a Turkish journalist ahead of the World Cup qualifier between the Armenian and Turkish national football teams in Yerevan, Sargsyan said that "if I did not believe that this trip were very important, I would not have invited Mr Gul". The Armenian president also said that his country is ready to establish relations with Turkey without any preconditions. He denied that Armenia has any territorial claims to Turkey. The following is the text of Murat Yetkin's interview with Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan on Turkish newspaper Radikal website on 28 August headlined "We attach great importance to Gul's visit". Subheadings have been inserted editorially:

Yerevan: Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan, reiterating his invitation to President Abdullah Gul to watch the 6 September national football [soccer] match in Yerevan together with him, said he sees this match as an opportunity for relations between the two countries to be promoted. Asserting that he believes the point that the relationship has brought the leaderships of both countries to the threshold of making important decisions, Sargsyan said: "Important decisions are not made easily. There will be those who oppose these decisions, both in Armenia and in Turkey. But I am certain that positive decisions will be supported by the majority of the people in both countries." Sargsyan continued as follows:

"Positive impressions are important in the taking of positive decisions. Speaking in front of the public and speaking while looking into the eyes of the person opposite you are different things. If I did not believe that this trip were very important, I would not have invited Mr Gul." Following are the responses that Armenian President Sargsyan provided to Radikal's questions:

Good opportunity

[Yetkin] The match on 6 September between the Turkish and Armenian national football teams can be characterized as the most political sports event that has yet been seen, at least in our region. In inviting President Abdullah Gul to watch the match together, what was your expectation, politically?

[Sargsyan] First of all, my purpose was the promotion of relations between Armenia and Turkey. In the message of congratulation that President Gul sent following my election, there was mention of the possibility of the development of relations. Later, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan spoke of the doors being open for dialogue. And so I, in response, decided to make use of this opportunity. There is a good sporting event in front of us. Our national football teams will confront one another for the first time in our history. This could provide a good opportunity for our relations to develop. What the [match] results are is not important; I hope that it will be a good game, from which the spectators will derive pleasure. Excitement will be high. This match will be an extraordinary event in our relations, and I hope that it will also be extraordinary with attendance by the Presidents of both Armenia and Turkey. We are neighbours, and we will continue to be neighbours. I think! it will be more beneficial for both peoples to have normal relations. I issued my invitation to Mr Gul within this framework.

[Yetkin] There are certain concerns in Ankara regarding this invitation, such as question marks in terms of border issues, and the things that President Gul might encounter in Yerevan. Do you see these concerns, and do you consider them valid?

[Sargsyan] There should be no such concerns. The logistical and technical preparations aside, we have invited a head of state, and every sort of measure for the appropriate reception of a head of state has been considered.

[Yetkin] I have spoken with the Dashnaktsutyun Party, and they are opposed to this invitation of yours. They say that they will do all in their power to make their voices heard if Gul comes to Yerevan. This is why I asked the question.

[Sargsyan] I think that the things that they would do to make their voices heard would not go beyond behaviour that would be acceptable for official visits of this type. I would consider that those engaging in uncivilized behaviour would be doing this against Armenia and myself rather than Gul, since I was the one who invited him.

Regional projects

[Yetkin] What do you think about the projects among Turkey, Azerbaijan, and Georgia in the energy and transportation areas that, as long as there is peace and stability, will increase the prosperity in the region? Does Armenia want to take part in these projects? Do you think that you will one day be accepted in Turkey like the Azerbaijani and Georgian leaders, and that Turkish leaders will accept an invitation to Yerevan without hesitation?

[Sargsyan] You know, I have taken two lessons from the regional projects that have been implemented to date. First, if all the countries in the region do not participate, or if one is excluded, this produces new lines of division. Second, if in these projects political considerations take precedence over economic ones, the projects are unable to be as successful as they should. In one of these projects, it is as if the cart were being put before the horse.

[Yetkin] What project are you speaking of?

[Sargsyan] The (Baku-Tbilisi-)Kars railroad, for instance... There in fact already exists such a railroad. (He was speaking of the track that is not used because the border with Armenia is closed - MY) With very little expenditure, it could be made usable. Great sums are being expended in order to keep Armenia out.

There have been visits to Turkey by Armenian leaders in the past. I as well, in various positions, have visited Turkey more than once. I consider that for neighbours to visit one another is natural, and that this should not be perceived by the other side as some sort of favour. Indeed, we are working for this to come about.

[Yetkin] When President Gul was together with Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev and Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili at the linkage ceremony for the Baku-Tbilisi-Kars railroad, he said that Armenia as well, if it respected international law, would be able to participate in these projects. Was he, in your view, referring to the existing borders, which came about with the 1921 agreement?

[Sargsyan] I think that you would get a clearer answer if you were to ask this to Gul. But I can say this: Armenia is a party to a great many international agreements, starting with the United Nations Charter, and respects its international obligations.

Territorial issues

[Yetkin] Let me ask more clearly. There are circles in Armenia that call a portion of Turkey "Western Armenia" and call for territory to be demanded in accord with the Treaty of Sevres. You must certainly appreciate that it is not easy to establish full diplomatic relations with your neighbours who debate your borders. What is your view, and your official position, regarding the legitimacy and the recognition of the 1921 Kars agreement?

[Sargsyan] I do not recall that any official of Armenia has spoken of a territorial demand. But I do hear this from the other side (referring to Turkey - MY). I think that it is not appropriate to take isolated statements as a basis. If you look at that, there are those in Turkey who say that there does not in fact exist any country called Armenia. We want there to be no precondition in our relations with Turkey.

I have heard concerns about the expressions Eastern and Western Armenia from Turkish officials as well. This strikes me as strange, because these are geographical expressions that were used in the 19th century. Insistence on forgetting and erasing this expression, which has remained in the past, resembles rejecting the existence of a great many other geographical expressions that have remained in the past, such as Sparta, the Russian Empire, and the Ottoman Empire. If this were our official policy, we would be called not the Republic of Armenia but the Republic of Eastern Armenia. No official of Armenia has had any such ambition. If diplomatic relations should be established, these topics could be discussed more easily. Just look: Russia has border issues with China and with Japan, but this is not an obstacle to diplomatic relations.

Georgia

[Yetkin] Since your invitation to Gul, serious developments have come about in the Caucasus, such as the Georgian-Russian dispute. What do you think about the support that Russia has been providing to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which are breaking away from Georgia?

[Sargsyan] Truly there have occurred tragic incidents, which have cost untold lives. This has shown yet once again what sorts of things an arms race can lead to in issues like this. We favour problems of this sort being resolved through negotiations. We favour a people's right to determine its own destiny being taken into account. Unfortunately, it seems as if things are going to escalate, and this does not please us at all. We believe that implementation of the plan agreed to by Russian head of state Dmitriy Medvedev and French head of state Nicolas Sarkozy, on behalf of the EU, will bring peace and stability. Peace and stability are very important for us. All else aside, we conduct over 70 per cent of our trade through Georgia.

[Yetkin] A gasoline shortage has begun in Yerevan as a result of Russia's bombing of the railroad bridge in Georgia, hasn't it?

[Sargsyan] True. I am hoping that the problem will be solved within two days. It is an obvious fact that instability in the region is not in Armenia's interests. This shows that we have a need for stability. For the instability to continue for three months, or for three years, would yet further increase our problems.

[Yetkin] Foreign Minister Eduard Nalbandyan has reacted positively to Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's proposal of a Caucasus Stability and Cooperation Platform. Could you detail your policy in this regard a bit more?

[Sargsyan] Nalbandyan, as Armenia's Foreign Minister, announced that he was positive towards Erdogan's words regarding dialogue for the sake of stability and security in the region. I believe that our Foreign Minister has taken a very proper step. When we receive the proposal, we will study its details, and we will announce our stance.

Nagornyy Karabakh

[Yetkin] Do you think that the issue of Nagornyy Karabakh, which is a problem in your relations both with Azerbaijan and with Turkey, will be solved in the short term? Can you see that your reaching agreement with Azerbaijan will increase the level of political and economic cooperation in the region?

[Sargsyan] The meeting I had on 6 June in St Petersburg with President Aliyev of Azerbaijan went well. Both of us directed our Foreign Ministers to work on the Madrid Principles; they have now come together three times. I hope that we will find a solution soon.

[Yetkin] Can you give an approximate date?

[Sargsyan] It would not be appropriate to make a prediction prior to the elections in Azerbaijan. We will see the developments following the elections.

[Yetkin] Do you see a similarity between the situations in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, on the one hand, and Nagornyy Karabakh on the other? I am asking because you spoke of a people's need for the right of self-determination.

[Sargsyan] All of these disputes have both similarities and differences. Rather than dwelling on the similarities and differences, I think we should focus on the lessons to be drawn. We see that efforts to solve the problems through military methods give rise to dangerous consequences that cannot be foreseen. I wonder how many people (in Georgia), before getting involved in this action, saw that they would encounter such consequences. We have to be very careful.

[Yetkin] Looked at from the outside, it is seen that relations between Turkey and Armenia have been locked for years on the genocide issue. Is this right, in your view? Will the relations, in your opinion, not move forward as long as Turkey does not recognize the tragic events of 1915, and before and afterwards, as genocide? Is this a precondition?

The past not to affect relations

[Sargsyan] You cannot find a single Armenian on the face of the earth who believes that it was not genocide. But we absolutely do not see the recognition of the genocide as a precondition in the development of our relations with Turkey. It is indeed for this reason that we say that we are prepared to establish diplomatic relations with Turkey without any preconditions.

[Yetkin] What do you think about the establishment of a historical commission in order to study what really happened in 1915? In your view, could a commission for normalization of relations, as proposed by the Armenian side, and a historical commission be managed in parallel with one another?

[Sargsyan] I think we need a new view on this issue as well. Because I cannot remember that a non-state commission has ever to date been established for the sake of resolving problems between states. The best solution would be to establish diplomatic relations. In this way, below a commission to be established between the governments, any number of sub-commissions or groups could be established. Previously, a similar commission was established in the United States. Did it produce results? Second, you have to bring about normal working conditions for your experts and your scholars. And for this, you have to have normal diplomatic relations. Efforts conducted with diplomatic relations and without diplomatic relations would be entirely different from one another.

[Yetkin] Do you believe that the ongoing covert diplomatic discussions between Turkey and Armenia will produce a result?

[Sargsyan] Certainly; if I didn't believe that they would bring results, it would be impossible for me to support them. But going beyond these discussions, I believe that the course of the relationship shows that we, the leaders of the two countries, have come to the stage of being able to make decisions. These will not be easy decisions. Not all in the societies of Armenia and Turkey will approve these decisions. But I am certain that positive decisions will be supported by the majority in the societies. I do not mean by this the diplomats' efforts; I am referring to the general atmosphere. Gul's message of congratulations, Erdogan's words, my invitation to Gul, and even this interview that I am having with you are all a part of this atmosphere. In this sense, I believe that we are coming to the stage of making decisions.

[Yetkin] How will Gul's coming or not coming to Yerevan impact this situation?

[Sargsyan] I believe that it is important. Because people do not reach important decisions easily. Personal relationships are important. To speak before the public, and to speak while looking into the eyes of the person opposite you, are two different things. If I did not believe that this visit was important, I would not have invited Mr Gul.

We are neighbours. We have gone through difficult times in our history. But Armenia is prepared to develop the relations. We expect the same thing from Turkey as well.

Note: This interview was handled via interpretation between Armenian and English.